First Jens, now Bill. I see a bad trend is starting...

Pete Willard

Upload here:
ftp://61.190.248.100//
I just turn my office as a FTP server 1 hours ago.

This FTP site is dedicated to those free file avaiable before but cannot or very difficult download today.

Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
North American Locomotive Works

Since I don't connect to Internet weekend and my work is busy. My reply is later. Sorry! At monday I have read most files license on my PC FTP. It's really time consumed. So I am too tired to replay your message. Fortunately, only a few file have copyright problem and I remove some of it. For your pleasure, I also remove any NALW stuff since you say your freeware can only be downloaded from Train-Sim file library. I also request you grant me a permission to let other people can download NALW files from my FTP if the Train-Sim library is busy. I promise I will not make any type of profit from provide downloading and don't make modification. There are still some other things I need to say:

1. You said I have such sake to sharing files. But I should say no! I have no interesting to collect any type files let other people downloading. The only reason let me setup my PC as a FTP sever is I can not find the famous "freeware" Empire State Express 2.0. Since many of you say it's excellent. I wonder why I can not find a famous freeware to download? I have use google search entire web and I am sure the possibility can download it in web is very low! Since this is not a normal software may be forgotten. I think there are must be something happen. Then I go to the Train-Sim forum and found the truth.

Some people said TrainArtisan does say nothing about it. But I think NO! No! They must have said too much. May be they really say nothing in public area. But I can sure there are at least twenty lawyer letter have been send to Webmasters, tell them if they still let ESE 2.0 available from their site, they will face "serious legal problems".

I never seen someone can stop freeware distributing. Can let it change back to a commercial software. I can't believe that but it really happened. TrainArtisan did it. Congratulation! they are really great! I know many people want to do that after they release several freeware to attract people and begin earn money. They stop free downloading of their freeware. But most of them will not even want to have a try. The only reason TrainArtisan can success is MSTS community is a very small community. But doese that mean they can ignore the common rule?

2. I have read all the TrainArtisan files license in my FTP. These are:

Empire State Express Locomotive and Tender
Alco RS-11 Locomotive Set
USRA Light Mountain Locomotive Beta
SD70 Locomotive Add-on
VIA Passenger Set

The latest readme file date is 2002-7-1. These license are just about same except the RS-11 one who's author is not TrainArtisan and is very different. I remove it. What I should say is these are indeed a freeware license. Let's look:

"You may freely distribute this software in its full
unaltered archived format provided that you do not
receive any financial gain from said distribution or
use. "

So I am sure I put these TrainArtisan files on my FTP is full legally. And if you see same statement in ESE 2.0 license (I guess most probably). You can upload it to my FTP server to let other people download it legally. I promise I will not "receive any financial gain" from providing download. And even if I am not, you upload it to me is still legally because you don't receive any financial gain.

Basic Reason is: TrainArtisan did not rescind they freeware license in public area. And even they announce they rescind the freeware license now this behavior is still may be invalid in law. Let's look that RS-11 "freeware" license:

"The author reserves the right to reject distribution requests,
or to rescind existing distribution agreements at any time at the author's sole discretion."

What does he mean? Does that mean anytime he can announce that free copy this "freeware" is illegality. Yes! But what will happen? If someone don't heard his statement, he copy this "freeware" to his friend. Does he illegal? Someone may be say he don't know so it's not illegal. But who can prove he know or not know? You cannot do that in law practice. Someone may be say it's only restricted on downloading in public area. But what is public area? If my friend download it from my FTP, does he illegal? If other people download it, does he illegal? I think if you want to apply restrict on freeware transfer, the only valid boundary is make profit or not.

...to be continue

Sorry for my poor English!

Just in case you don't understand, not only can you not host them you must remove them immediately from your server! You are in violation of international copywrite law if you persist!

A seperate E-Mail follows confirming this message!

Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
North American Locomotive Works

cheers

Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
North American Locomotive Works

First, let's take it down a notch, shall we.

I've been on the receiving end of piracy, so I think I'm qualified to comment. In practice it is not so easy to shut down pirates, and they work like those annoying "punch the monkey" ad banners: shut them down in one place and they will pop up in another.

In practice, the law is hard to enforce, unless you've got lots of time and money on your hands. That is my personal experience. This doesn't make it OK to pirate stuff, but it sure as hell makes it easy, until you run into someone with time & money... then all bets are off, as I was telling our friend above.

cheers

Tell that to those who have had their work for FS2002 ripped off by a certain person in Spain (I believe) who is still downloading stuff from websites and putting it on his website.

Bill

Is his name Marco or somthing like that ??

Wasn't he doing it with Train-Sim stuff for awhile too ??

Later

Tim Kent

"Power for You"

Bill

Kevin Arceneaux
It is time for Amtrak to become a fallen flag!

Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
North American Locomotive Works

i am sorry for sounding so harsh but this bickering crap is get REAL old and is not really MSTS related. Leave the legal bickering to the lawyers. Let's talk about e-units, stack trains, khp and up coming releases and such....let's all be happy here, not fight to the virtual death! ......

Hauling America one pixel at a time

Bill Hemb; train sim repainter, 3d modeler

Your post is an example of why I felt that your were not qualified to be a moderator? You want them to send their complaints by email, why did you not also do it that way, instead of your post?

Kevin Arceneaux
It is time for Amtrak to become a fallen flag!

NOT because I am a mamber of NALW,

BUT......

Bill if you wanted your KCS units hosted ONLY @ Train-Sim and you found out this guy decided he was going to host your stuff at his site for others that found the Train Sim files section too busy.

You'd say somthing !!!

Be nice to Chuck, hes getting old ya know !!

Later

PS: Kev, I would imagine this post is on its way out to the deleted pile now !!

Tim Kent

"Power for You"

For the record I know I spelt member wrong !!

I hate editing posts.........seems like hiding stuff !!

Later all

Tim

Tim Kent

"Power for You"

Hauling America one pixel at a time

Bill Hemb; train sim repainter, 3d modeler

As for posts, you can't go to the general forum and figure that out for yourself?

Kevin Arceneaux
It is time for Amtrak to become a fallen flag!

>>As for posts, you can't go to the general forum and figure that out for yourself? <<......

not sure what you mean by this....in reguards to deleteing my posts? that's what i think you are saying.... that and reading the good ole rule book. well again you have caught me in a mess up...and i thank you.....helps me from digging a hole here. Thanks Kevin

Hauling America one pixel at a time

Bill Hemb; train sim repainter, 3d modeler

Hauling America one pixel at a time

Bill Hemb; train sim repainter, 3d modeler

Look at the music and video industry , they have spent million to keep people copying artists work, and there is no end in site..

Do you think the copyrite police are going to jump on a pirate doing
some ones MSTS files or a pirate who is doing major motion picture or recording artist.. its ovious which ones they will go after..

Dont it all go back to one thing,, if you dont want your work pirated
don't post it..

Patm41

Maglev Route Designer
Casino Express
Waterfront Route

Then if you are correct then NALW should stop posting our products immediately??? Is that what you are advocating?

Get real... The copywrite police are you and me! And however much I want to waste on a lawyer.... Usenet also will tend to act against pirate sites when Identified and will "silence" them....

One of the biggest enforcement tools is the disapproval of the community.....

Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
North American Locomotive Works

How many packs of Tums do you guys eat a day?
Do any of you have a bleeding ulcer yet?

And all over "Freeware" ??????

What a life!
You can have it...

Gives new meaning to the old saying "a legend in his own mind".

Shag

He is not asking to host NALW files on his ftp, he asking to have 1 file uploaded to his personal ftp so he can have it. PERSONAL FTP does not mean public ftp, therefore he is perfectly legal to do this.

To chucksc

Thank you reply. I have said I have removed NALW stuff. But from your message. It seems not, so I check it again and remove the forgotten berkup11.zip. Thanks your mention!

Can you explain the reason of rejection, why? Does you have agreement with Train-Sim so they forbidden these "freeware" be put in other place? And so they cansupport your development? BTW you spell "copywrite" seems wrong, does it called "Copyright"?

Don't call me pirate. All files in my FTP is such things you called "freeware". Who can pirate from a freeware? If you told that to people in other corner of the world. They must be laugh. And I have said I will make no profit!

To ctillier

Please stop threaten. Since I am a individual and make no profit. I only do that when I am sure I am fully legally.

To TexasWestern70Mac

I know what you mean. Since I am 36 years old. I know what will happen when I post these messages. Chucksc say I have a sake. Yes! I really have a sake. My sake is feel unfair when face unfair. Feel unhappy when face unfair. Not like some other people feel nothing when face unfair or like unfair.

To McDeth

No! you are wrong! I don't care some people upload ESE 2.0 to me or not. I don't need take such a time make a argument. What I feel angry is that something they called "freeware" is not a true freeware!

-----------------------------

I know why these people think law is on they side. Because they think their freeware is a alms. But I don't think so. I think a freeware is a promise. Promise he will not claim you need pay money to him so author can contribute his works to whole the society (I guess many people include many freeware author will agree me). The alms can be break anytime. But promises can not be rescind any time!

Of course the author has it's copyright, he hold his right sell it on the future update, has the right forbidden anyone make profit from it. And even now he still can sell this release, if someone like buy. No one can forbidden author. But that does not mean he can rescind grant any time.

Just as I said. Rescind granted license any time should not be allowed! Because it will make people suddenly became illegal. You statement is not a countryannounce a law he must need know. Even a country announce a law. It's a long period from announce to apply. If you don't want people free copy your product. You can present them as a commercial software. And the license is just as acommercial End User License. Everyone should know he can not give it to other people unless he will never use it or download it again (If it is still availble). But how can you call this software a "freeware"? It's no different with commerical software. Only difference is you not sell it now. But that's your businese. I prefer call it "Commercial software free of charge" or simply "present software". I think most people will not agree you call it freeware.

If you still want give them free copy right but not forever. You can set a time limit, for example 12/25/2002. After that time free copy is illegal. That's will be no doubtful. And if you still want to give other people free copy right after date, you can announce that time or before.

...still to be continued

Sorry form my poor English!

Yes we do have an Agreement with Nels based on our relationships with him dating back to Flight-Sim days...
It is our way of Supporting a Good Friend who has been very helpful and supportive of us as an organization and as individuals for years now. And no we don't get free memberships in case you ask.. We pay the same dues as everyone else.
Our Models remain our property and as such we are allowed under international copyright (Spelling checker/Grammer checker missed that in my earlier post, sorry) to control access, distribution and modifications to our intellectual property! We do that! Sorry but its our choice!
We have no problems with users passing our models around among their friends, one to one... The problem arises when some one posts an FTP site on a public forum and announces it... and then basically announces it is to avoid download times at Train-Sim......
We have heard your complaints about Train-Sim's performance and the negative comparisons to Avsim.... Let me try to address those here, 1st AVSIM is totally Advertiser Supported so they have a much bigger revenue stream which pays for a better server farm... Nels has opted for the Membership option on here in order to hold down the number of advertisers as I understand it(on Avsim some days my Popup-Stopper Pro flashes like a strobe light blocking ads).....
IMHO Nels could probably afford a much better server farm if even half of the people on here who complain about speed and access paid their $30.... I especially love the one about the guys using DAP pro and other packages to try and get multiple files in one pass complaining because Nels won't let them unless they are paying members. In contrast one of the English sites choses to limit free downloads to about 10 bytes at around 8pm GMT (Poetic license here for effect)... I have spent days trying to get files from that site... In fact since I choose not to pay them I don't bother most of the time. Their performace when you do get in is similar to Avsims in my experience.
I suppose Nels could switch to this model? Then even fewer of you would get files. So if you are not a paying member you get no vote IMHO!

Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
North American Locomotive Works

I cant beleive this McDeth guy is still here!

Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
North American Locomotive Works

I hate the ESE. I don't hate TA's model. I hate the locomotive, itself. In general, I don't like steam. However, there was a model of the GS-4 #4449 which I like very much. This model, when originally distributed, required the TA ESE cabview files. At the time I obtained the GS-4, the only place you could still get the ESE free was on a German website. Since then I have given copies of the cabview files to several people. I stopped doing so, not because of TA's threats, but because trying to send 12mb of data files via email is a real pain. I got the ESE FREE. The enclosed readme authorizes me to distribute it for free. If I wanted to test it, I am certain the courts would uphold that right.

Cal Rasmussen
Beaverton, OR

Columbia Gorge Route (Phase 1 track completed. Building roads and scenery)

Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
North American Locomotive Works

FWIW, We all have and lead very full lives thank you very much.
This is our hobby and our members put significant effort into our products and as such are very protective of their creations. This is normal. Not to do so would be Abnormal IMHO! Our only payment is the appreciation of our fans. Our reputation means a lot to us as individuals and as an organization so we are protective of that also. Its called Pride of ownership.... Again a normal thing..

Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
North American Locomotive Works

I understand what your models mean to you, mine (This treasure in
mine arms -- Shakespeare) mean a lot to me as well.

Just a little note:
I have seen a few of my models on German, and French websites who
claimed they where the creators of the models... Frankly, I could
care less... My feelings are, if they are that lonely in life, and
need to claim they created those models to get a little attention,
then so be it. I can either get wound up and stressed out, or smile
and let them be happy for a short time in their life. Our lives are
to short, and they don't make enough Tums for me to be so "prideful"
all the time.

A little psychology:

Anger is one of the most misunderstood and overused of human emotions.

1) Anger is a reaction to an inner emotion and not a planned action.
2) Anger is easier to show: everyone gets angry.
3) The feelings underlying the anger reaction make us feel vulnerable
and weak; anger makes us feel, at least momentarily, strong and in
control.
4) Angry behaviors are learned over the life-span and therefore can be
unlearned and replaced with healthier patterns of coping.

My point in all this:

You are entitled to your opinion, thats fine....
But, maybe things would go a little smoother if we all didn't come
out with both guns blazing........

Shag

So I guess we are just different...
I'm not criticising your attitude just pointing out it doesn't work for us....

Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
North American Locomotive Works

No Comment.

>You are entitled to your opinion also....

Thank You.

>I am not angry, believe it or not...

You are displaying aggressive\defensive behavior, which is an
extension of anger. (Believe it or not)

>I am just protecting my rights and the rights of my group.

Protecting your rights is American, and I cannot disagree with that.

>I'm glad that others stealing your creations and taking credit for
>them doesn't bother you....

I guess to say it didn't bother me in the least would be a lie, I just
don't let it drive me to drinking... (in a figure of speech)

>Unfortunately that doesn't work for us!
>And I really mean us as in NALW!

I understand that.

>How about if I make it disagreeable enough the pirates will
>leave us alone and home in on you since you don't care?

Agreed!

>So I guess we are just different...

Expected.

>I'm not criticising your attitude just pointing out it
>doesn't work for us....

I can take a poke in the ribs...
Or even a black eye...
It's not the first strike that hurts, it's what happens afterwords
thats painful...

As a good friend of mine has said:

"As within,
so without"

Shag

Thanks your reply and explain. What I should say is many people and me
respect what you are contributing. But I still can not agree you
called your software as "freeware", it's not free enough as TA's
freeware license and ought to be called a freeware. The reason I will
explain later.

You still replay quickly before reading all my post. If you search you
should found I say nothing about Avsim, nor others. Only you mention
it. And I also do not compare between websites. May be you found I
have some complaints about Train-sim file library. But that's only a
little. I know free download means what. Since I am using Broad Band,
other people using dialup will take more complaints.

Let's clear something: I don't have any suspicion on TrainArtisan's
standard freeware license. If fact, it's really good, can use as a
template for other people. I wish every freeware license can as good
as TA's or Chris Longhurst's license. But it's not! I only suspicion
on TA's behavior. Although I hear nothing about they behavior. I am
sure there are must something happened, and is underground.

Since a freeware user will not hope get any support from a commercial
software provider. What your are thinking about why TA force others
site stop provide downloading is of course wrong. A commercial website
target is gain. No one want to have trouble if they receive a law
letter. Even they know they have the full right to do that. Since they
are commercial site, it's really difficult to prove they did not
"receive any financial" from provide downloading. Of course they will
choice give up quickly. Then what about personal homepage? Almost all
the personal homepage is hosted by ISP or schools server, and a ISP also
want to have no trouble, they don't care user have rights or not, it's
easily to shutdown them. As this reason and the amount of MSTS websites is
very very low. So TA successful. BTW, about that cabview, everyone
know can use any other stream loco cabview instead, not must TA's one.

Shag say you are angry. I am also angry. Since I am sure what I am
doing is full legally. But you are still talking pirating with my question.
If I am doing pirating I will not doing discussion with you any more.
I am just talking about law, and respect Copyright, so it's a serious
things. What I think is just they(TA) don't respect the law!

Then why you feel unhappy since you have contributed so much. I think
contribute will let people feel happy not unhappy. And what you are
fighting for? The copyright law only protect your money (The explain I
will describe later), if you are not fighting for that, you can not
hope too much from that. IMHO, your problem is you want to control
everything around you. You want to justice everything by you not by
law. You don't understand the meaning of free. So you software is not
truly free and you are also not free.

Attachment file is TA's VIA Passenger Set freeware license.
I wish everyone read it and then know what I mean.

Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
North American Locomotive Works

I will not talk to you anymore.

Only one thing I need say is MSTS community is a very small community anyone who want to earn much money shoud not stay here. It's impossible even there are no pirate.

We are on two side, two country, one advantage and one disadvantage and can not get common comment!

I'll try driver your trains but not try to understand you thought. If you dislike, I can also never driver NALW rolling stock anymore.

Continue your way!

I know I'm "new" around these parts, but this is not
the nice friendly "model railroader" community that
I'm used to, thats for sure...

I see a lot of double talk going on here. Is this because
the narrow gaugers are mixed in with the standard gaugers?

Will the real Model Railroaders please stand up!?!

LC

......... you think your user-name helps ???
was there really no other you could think of ??

Greets Henk.

Ask yourself that same question... This is exactly my point...
Nice friendly community you have here... But please, don't blame it
on my user name.

I had lung cancer once, thank the good Lord I was saved from it
killing me.... The screen name was chosen to remind me that smoking
and breathing don't mix very well.

LC

Greets Henk.

Bill

Happy Holidays to all.

>TJ

This is how I define these terms:

Public domain: software that is released freely to the public, you may alter it or do anything you like with it in any way you wish. No copyright or warranty of any kind associated with the software.

Freeware: software that is freely distributed for use at no cost, but the original author retains full intellectual ownership and copyright of the software. The software may be freely used or distributed, but not altered according to the terms of the copyright with the software.

Shareware: software that is freely distributed, but requires a license and fee for continued use after a set trial period. the original author retains full intellectual ownership and copyright of the software according to the terms of the copyright. (The only practical difference between shareware and commercial software is the original distribution method.)

Alright !!

Time for me to get back in here. I can't believe you would even post somthing like this. I for one ( not speaking for any other NALW member ) could care less who's trains you drive and don't drive.

Once you've downloaded the product, paint it all pink for all I care

( please dont let me see that though )

90% of the work done at NALW is for our enjoyment. EVERY single thing NALW has created would have been made eventually by someone else had NALW not created them.

We at NALW are just lucky enough to have a bunch of people who enjoy creating product together. Had it been JUST J.C. who did the Big Boy maybe he would be fine with you having stuff on your site. NALW as a group has decided on a method for downloads of product and thats " how it goes "

Just because we happen to have a large group of members does not make us better than any other group , or any other single MSTS add on creator.

ALL OF US CREATE " READ ME's " FOR ONE PURPOSE......FOR YOU TO READ !!

There is NOTHING that needs to be " figured out " or " understood " or proof read from other people " freeware agreements "

Pretty much just do as everybody asks and everybody should get along right ?

Here it seems to be ...... Read the licencing agreement, and then try to find loopholes in the agreement so "you" can do whatever "you" like with the file !!

I as well thank you for removing the NALW product.

If it makes you feel better , you dont HAVE to drive NALW product. In fact it wouldn't hurt anyone of us if you took it off of your hard drive.

For the record I am not trying to be an A%@. I am just stating what I am thinking on this bright early COLD Friday morning

I mentioned COLD right ??

Tim Kent

"Power for You"

Let me preface by saying "I'm just asking thought provoking questions" I don't necessarily hold anything I am about to say with any personal convictions.

Anyway, after looking at some of the behavior on both sides in this thread I am wondering "How did we get here?"

Does this behaviour exist universally (IE: Stealing, Name-calling of "pirates" & "thieves", disregard for README's and licences, extreme restrictions on distribution, etc...) for *all* games that allow add-on content to be created by end-users?

This is my first experience with this to this extreme (both sides of the argument) and I have nothing to compare it to... Are Train-Simmers unique?

Are people expecting to get previously available stuff becuase they are used to stuff like QUAKE add-ons that can be found anywhere, years after they are released?

Does the extreme control on distribution solve anything with regards to "support" calls? It seems to create more user complaints? (Personal Note: I am really tired of seeing NALW, TA, 3DTreains, etc getting *yelled* at or about because of their practices.)

Is there as basis for this need to only have a single distribution point? Isn't it just a sanity control thing? Aren't we just saying that we use T-S so we only have to worry about uploading to one place? So if we make changes we can remove old versions with ease and only worry about informing a single group of people? Isn't it just nice to know that we only have to come to one place to see "what's new" for MSTS?

Based of the original question "What's the term freeware mean?" Are we really doing the right thing by removing older versions. Can't we just say, "The older version is out there, it sucks, we won't fix it... if that's ok with you, fine. If not, delete it. We don't care about previous versions?"

If we are saying that leaving older, lower quality models in distribution is a bad thing when a new model is available, isn't all this negative attitude aimed toward the removal or a model from distribution just as bad?

By telling those who don't *pay* for add-ons or who don't pay to support NELS that they don't *count* presumes we have an unlimited supply of Train-Sim enthusiasts. Do we? We can afford to have a large number of ticked-off, unhappy people who eventually give up on the Train-Sim community?

Can't we all just get along?

Pete Willard

>This whole thread has me curious...
>
>Let me preface by saying "I'm just asking thought provoking
>questions" I don't necessarily hold anything I am about to
>say with any personal convictions.
>
Good! So lets try to answer it in the same vein...

>Anyway, after looking at some of the behavior on both sides
>in this thread I am wondering "How did we get here?"
>
>Does this behaviour exist universally (IE: Stealing,
>Name-calling of "pirates" & "thieves", disregard for
>README's and licences, extreme restrictions on distribution,
>etc...) for *all* games that allow add-on content to be
>created by end-users?
>

In my sad experience it does... Look at the flight sim community to see the same problems writ large(Larger)! A lot of us on the development side are pre-sensitised by the constant attacks and the constant attempts to by-pass our wishes in the distribution of models that we spent significant time and love on and provide to the community so that others may enjoy them also... At no charge or in the original case of TA a charitable contribution. It is my personal opinion that these attacks are promulgated by a very small but vocal community of Louts who take our requests as a challenge to bypass. T

>This is my first experience with this to this extreme (both
>sides of the argument) and I have nothing to compare it
>to... Are Train-Simmers unique?
>
No see the Flight-Sim community which has suffered from the same problems almost from the beginning.

>Are people expecting to get previously available stuff
>becuase they are used to stuff like QUAKE add-ons that can
>be found anywhere, years after they are released?
>

It appears so.

>Does the extreme control on distribution solve anything with
>regards to "support" calls? It seems to create more user
>complaints? (Personal Note: I am really tired of seeing
>NALW, TA, 3DTreains, etc getting *yelled* at or about
>because of their practices.)
>
>Is there as basis for this need to only have a single
>distribution point? Isn't it just a sanity control thing?
>Aren't we just saying that we use T-S so we only have to
>worry about uploading to one place? So if we make changes
>we can remove old versions with ease and only worry about
>informing a single group of people? Isn't it just nice to
>know that we only have to come to one place to see "what's
>new" for MSTS?
>

The answer to all this is probably yes... Remember we are doing this as a hobby and it already eats up lots of our free time...

>Based of the original question "What's the term freeware
>mean?" Are we really doing the right thing by removing older
>versions. Can't we just say, "The older version is out
>there, it sucks, we won't fix it... if that's ok with you,
>fine. If not, delete it. We don't care about previous
>versions?"
>

Probably a more precise term would be "Restricted-Distribution Freeware". Freeware because you don't pay for it!
We started out not restricting distribution and then other people started distributing our models with out permission (and charging for them) and we would get support calls for BB ver1 or Genesis v1 or Big Blow v1 .... Even to answer to say get the latest model takes time.... I recently got a series of e-mails from a "gentleman" of French-Canadian extraction demanding that we allow him to reskin and distribute one of our models... When I didn't answer him with in about 48 hours I got an even nastier one saying he "would post a message on T-S and see if that could make us move any faster!" We have received hate mail like you wouldn't believe at the rate of 2 or 3 a week (sometimes more) demanding (usually in very fractured english) that we allow them to use/modify/distribute some, all or pieces of our models with out reservation and litterally becoming abusive when we demurr. We try to handle these in a reasonable and professional manner. But, Some days I run a little low on my "Be kind to idiots" potion.

>If we are saying that leaving older, lower quality models in
>distribution is a bad thing when a new model is available,
>isn't all this negative attitude aimed toward the removal or
>a model from distribution just as bad?
>

Yes! maybe we would still have TA and some others around except for the rude, ill behaved "Gimme Gimmes"! Although they would have probably done payware anyway given their talents at least they would still be producing volume Freeware and participating in the discussions... Does anyone remember when the aforementioned gentleman from Italy started leaching from Train-Sim and the whole thing almost stopped? He was literally stealing from all of us.

>By telling those who don't *pay* for add-ons or who don't
>pay to support NELS that they don't *count* presumes we have
>an unlimited supply of Train-Sim enthusiasts. Do we? We
>can afford to have a large number of ticked-off, unhappy
>people who eventually give up on the Train-Sim community?
>

We don't say they don't count! Just that they have no right to complain about availability or bandwidth or content because they are not making a contribution. Note we are not talking about constructive criticism here just outright whining! They are spoiled and need to be called to account. You don't have to be a modeler to contribute. Supporting Train-Sim is one way of contributing... And if those few individuals get pissed off and leave then don't let the door hit them in the a$$ on the way out. Then we can quit wasting bandwidth over piracy and unauthorized hosting and just plain churlishness and get back to the hobby most of us love!

>Can't we all just get along?

LOL!
What happend to Jack Nicholson in that satirical movie (whose name escapes me at the moment) about a Martian invasion when he asked that very question about getting along?

IMHO No, There will allways be rude and ill mannered people who so annoy the rest of us that we start to become like them in self defense.... Heaven help the poor guy who comes in here new and asks a question that has been previously flamed, like the poor ba$tard who started this thread.

FWIW, I and several members of our team have been with this product from the beginning and the accelerating nasty tone rivaling that of the flight sim community (where we started) concerns us. However, we absolutely no intention of rolling over and playing dead for the people who delight in attacking us or provoking us. Not being passive-agressive and being retired military let me say with some authority that the best defense is a good offense and we refuse to be driven out of the hobby we love by the bozo's and the trolls! Policing of these people has to be a community thing... If some (insert random single digit number here) aged child whose parents have forgotten to discipline him/her/it makes rude and offensive remarks to us or about us or any other of our friends in the community we WILL rise to their defense!
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>
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>Pete Willard

Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
North American Locomotive Works

Chuck Schneider
Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
North American Locomotive Works

I've had wavering pro/con feelings about the Train-Sim community myself lately.

Granted, I don't have hoards of people trying to re-skin, steal, sell, or pick apart my work. In that sense, I don't have first hand knowledge of what you deal with daily. I thnk I received a grand total of "1" email concerning my own add-on work. Maybe it's a good thing to remain below the threshold of "popular".

I appreciate the candor.

Pete Willard

The oddest part is that I have not received email telling me if they liked it or hated it. Many about the missing dl, but none on whether it was any good or not. That makes me wonder why I would devote 20 or so hours a week to develope them. By the time I am done with the AI traffic, player traffic, drop offs/pick ups, and the 300 times you have to run the activity for testing; I am totally sick of it. I have yet to run one of my activities for fun.

Kevin Arceneaux
It is time for Amtrak to become a fallen flag!

LOL,

I will spend alot of time creating activities for myself to run. I never upload them for the reasons you have stated.

( I don't want all the " Where do I get this file e-mails )

Anyways by the time I get everything where I want it , AI trains set up , Static consists placed I usually dont even feel like playing the thing anymore !!

That is why I am glad there are guys like you and longhairedwizard out there who create activities. Saves me the headaches !!

Tim Kent

"Power for You"