How many do you think they sell at a day? If they get tons of e-mails then perhaps its time for a spam-killer.

Also i understand your fear you do not have to worry about that your goldmine of models for your 5 bucks donation will be harmed by my mail.

ASC

Lol! When they first started requiring you to pony up some cash to download stuff, I thought it was a noble idea. I mean, donating a measly $5 to New York firefighters to download a whole bunch of awesome STUFF???

WRONG-O!!!!!

First they overcharged for a pack of only 3 trains repainted in a couple of color schemes, they could at least have included a route for that price, then they update their site maybe once a month at most, only to hand out a repaint of a train that has already had other 50,000 other repaints, and then if you did not buy that American Classics pack, then they say that you can't come in, EVEN THOUGH YOU GAVE THEM THE $5 THEY WANTED! They have never sent me a reply on that I donated to charity, and then every month they just crank out one or maybe two repaints!

At least at Train-Sim.com, when you sign up to be a first class member, you just put in your required information, bada-boom. You're on.

-Matt, Future Cirque du Soleil musician

-Creating Pac-Man comics for the humorless people out there

Adam

Sure.

But thats also bad business. If they had instead of building instable club sections just a pass and id protected sub web with also pass and id protected download links they have not had this problems. The message about the problem is from the 20th. But instead of investing some hours to change it to something like this they waste time sorting mails of file whishes from spam and pissed customers.

So thats no excuse.

ASC

Concerned customer or simply someone with a different agenda?

JS

Have to say again that i am lucky with American Classic. I was looking for trains that are only available as club ware. If they had them to sell, i had just paid and everything would be ok.

And no. The account on this site and my pseudo have nothing to do with TA. You can find it also in other forums and it will probably me.

ASC

here is a message i posted at their site,I'm sure i wont get any response

(I'm a little perplexed as to why you would punish all the club members for something one person did. If you caught the individual than why close off the downloads area. This seems like a very extreme measure to me. I understand that we can get the items from you if we e-mail you but with all due respect e-mailing TA officials is next to impossible if you want a response.I know from a look at the forums here that you most likely won't be responding or you'll lock this thread because you don't like it but I needed to speak my peace. I hope you gentlemen will consider being more customer friendly in the future because as a retail company you are surely lacking.Take a lesson from Marc at "3dtrains" if you want to do this business right.)

I too am very disappointed with TA as we all have seen the way an add-on business should be run but alas I don't think anything will change with them.They have stars in their eyes now.

ASC

-MIKE-

Model Railroader, Railfan, and MSTS user
Youth Member La Mesa Model Railroad Club, San Deigo CA
"Good Times"

Bill

Now do some magic and download something.

Yes you missed that the downloads are gone.

And to take it a step further before you come back to tell us that you can read the filenames. Click on one. And what helps the most:
read the first page.

ASC

Then I tried to download the Northern Pacific trainset. Thought my browser broke...

I can see why there's all this fuss now. What idiot gave the passcodes away?

Every time TA does something "nice" they get screwed over. Last time everybody took the stuff without donating.

"Sigh" Where do people get off stealing things?

I whole-heartedly agree with you. Lacking the talent and knowledge myself, I am extremely appreciative of the efforts of yourself and the rest of the team at TA.

Tim Birkeland

Unfortunately what you are witnessing is the rants of the 'I want it NOW' brigade.

Bill

EDITED for grammar.

Conn McCarthy
Train Artisan

I don't know what the hell you or your cohorts did to pi$$ of the troops originally, but they sure have been on your case. Just when you think everybody's happy and somewhat satisfied, all hell breaks loose again and the poop hits the fan.

I don't know what to tell you, other than to consider the source and ignore it. Yeah, I know that's hard to do, especially when it's free stuff they're pi$$ing about.

Just remember, there's a lot more of us who think you're doing a bang-up job and really do appreciate all the hard work you're doing for us. In the end, it's not what anybody else thinks, it's about the good feeling you get inside when you do something and it turns out good. And as for the value of AC, I personally feel I got more than my money's worth. I like it, I don't regret it, and I'd buy it again in a heartbeat.

A message from the silent majority -

Larry Steiner

Free stuff ist stuff you get for nothing. But as life teaches nothing is for free. And also not a membership to a club which is bounded to a donation or a product you have to buy to get it.

So what you want to tell us? That you build that trains just to make us happy. That the organizations you wanted to help with the donations are chosen with closed eyes in the yellow pages?

And to my 36 hour membership. I wrote the first letter at the 28th of december. I haven given already up because no answer was coming. I read about a new distibution and wrote again. Nothing was coming. I subscribed to the messageboard and read that posts are lost. I finally managed to get a reaction from you. I wrote another letter asking for links for some files. Another 36 hours and still no message.

You needed just 6 hours to reply here.

I know i am a bad boy. So i am on your black list now and would not get it. No problem. Put it there where the sun dont shines.

Over and out.

ASC

TA's American Classics is the only payware I own, except for MSTS itself. I purchased it because my original ESE disappeared in a disk crash and there was no other way to get it. I like the original Hudson enough to spend the bucks. The other locomotives were "gravy", to use the American slang for bonus.

As an amateur "developer" I can really appreciate the work involved, but I'm not sure what it's worth. Many 3D locomotives take as long or longer to create than their real counterparts. We are talking hand crafted brass models, not mass production. What's the fair market value for all that time and effort and skill. Take Julians K-36, for example. It represents about 9 months to a year of blood sweat and tears. I'll bet that's more work than even the best Korean or Japanese brass builder puts in most of their models. They're items cost thousands in todays market. The K-36 is FREE! This could mean the brass engines are over priced. It could mean also Julian might be considered crazy for not charging something for an equivalent gem.

Now consider that the typical mass produced Athearn steamer costs about $150 and that Broadway Limited models average about $200. These are plastic replicas, not brass, but still high quality, realistic replicas with all the latest electronic gizmos. It stands to reason that TA or Juilan or NALW could ask the same price for their products.

They don't. At the very worst, we pay $30 for a multiple sets of engines and passenger cars. If these were mass produced physical models the "street" value might easily top a thousand bucks.

Ah! you say...They sell software, not model trains!

There's the rub. Software is oft times not considered as valuable as real things. The way the computer culture has evolved, companies that charge realistic or comparable prices for realistic or comparable development don't sell very much product. People expect software to be cheap, or free. If they feel it costs too much, a vast majority of people will steal the software rather than pay for it. That seems to be the way the market works. Only corporations will pay real money for computer applications. Folks like you and me aren't willing. In some cases we're not even able. When your a kid, or a poor adult, even $30.00 can mean a difference. Of course, that's not the major issue.

Given a choice, you and I will opt for the free software every time. This means freeware, shareware, or (dare I say it?) pirateware. The proliferation of free software from all these sources is what has driven the computer into every social nook and cranny of our modern society. In some ways, the piracy has actually done more to promote computer use that any other single factor. It isn't right, but it seems to be the way things really are.

Which brings us back to TA.

Once upon a time TA gave the software away. They hadn't meant to, of course. It just worked out that way. You could go onto their site and take anything you wanted. The only thing they asked in return was a small donation to one of several charities. Perhaps they were a bit naieve about it. They depended on a honor system. They chose to believe that people were basically honest and good hearted. "They chose poorly", it would seem. Folks dropped by, took one of each and left. Charity? What charity?

Like the Goodwill trailer in the parking lot, the TA site was purloined. Models poured out, hardly anything came back.

So TA wised up and reversed the process. You donate first, and then we let you have the model. If you want, you can buy one of our add-ons first, then you can have all these others. Fair enough?

Try to imagine General Motors operating the same way. You buy one Cavalier, or throw some money in the bucket for the homeless,
and they give you access into the dealership anytime you want. You can drive out with as many cars as your garage can hold, free of charge. I think it would be very hard to get anywhere near a GM dealership. The waiting lines would be hundreds of miles long.

Now, some inconsiderate miscreant has shafted them again. They should not have to armor plate their site. Folks should have more consideration. There's little excuse for stealing. Simulate train models are not a basic human need like bread or water. As for the paying customers, can't people shell out the five bucks without pissin' about it? Can't they just bide their time? Are they gonna die because they don't have the blue 4-6-2. Heavens, what will the rest of the crowd say? That's like being caught wearing K-Mart sneakers!

Instead they have to go mouthin' off because Mommy and Daddy never told them "NO".

Well, now. It seems we must endeavor to learn that there are times when one must wait for something one really wants.

By the way, if you think waiting for access to TA models takes a while, try building one of these babies yourself. You'll be there for a lot longer than a few weeks. I guarantee you'll learn the meaning of the word "patience".

TA may be quirky, and like everybody else, they do things we don't quite understand. Not wrong, just different. They are overworked because of their novel sales approach of giving their customers the moon and the sky and the kitchen sink. Now they've got more challenges. Back the hell off and let them sort this out.

Regardless of all this bitchin', there are few places on the planet where you can a better value. It's a wonder they turn a profit. Maybe they don't. Maybe they do it because they like doing it. Just like the rest of us.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to run my new Champion trainset. Bye!

-Verne

Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

My 2 cents,
Chris

Content Manager @ MOWShed.com / Webmaster @ Midwest-rail.com MSTS Rocks TA Please do 611 & 1218

If folks get this way about they's toys, I can't imagine how they react to real life. Maybe they don't know they make medication for that now...

You guys do great work. I hope you get this sorted out okay.

However, I have checked out the hoops you have to jump through to get in TA's "Club" and I just don't feel it is worth it. It seems there must be an easier way....

btw-While I haven't donated money to an institution lately, until very recently I was donating about 30 or more hours a week of my time to Illinois Railway Museum. That doesn't count though.

Todd Jones

The latest situation with Club TA is nothing more than a minor irritation caused by a theif. From the day that TA came on to the property I have had nothing but a great relationship with Cy Lum and the "Back Shop Gang"! When I have had a question I E-mail Cy directly and usually receive a reply within a couple of working days. I would suggest that Marid and Todd follow the same tack.

Now, you guys over there (especially the original poster!): Nobody forced you to buy or donate anything. Nobody asked you to visit TA's site. If you want something you'll just have to wait and see... And appreciate their work.

I personally have no time to get myself behind TSM or so to contribute to this community. But I take the best out of it and I am more than glad that I can support these busy people with the LEAST I can provide, that is money.

You see, I have a little more than 100 posts. Yet I am member since the very beginning. I bought MSTS when I was over in New Zealand and when it was first available there. But what some folks have still to learn here is the following: Shut up, think twice, and if you still think you got to say something, the speak with common sense.

If you want to reduce the support of members of this community or if you want them to stop contributing their creations, which are most often little pieces of art, then continue to complain and complain and nitpick and so on... You will see, what happens!!! It will mean, that people share their work privately, that people like me will not longer have any profits out of it (as I am supporting them!!!) and you will end up very lonely (at least within the realm of MSTS, if not even in "real" life, if you're behaving there as you're here...).

Verne, I ask you, no, I beg you to just ignore those folks! They are just childish, aren't they? When I bought the TA American Classics pack, I was amazed! Your postcards are hanging on the wall in my room (even my girl-friend says, they're looking "not too bad" ). You folks at TA are doing good work. As I said above, I think, you could update your site a little bit more often, which does not mean to release stuff more often. What you are doing is art, so it does take it's time. But I am very sure, that you have lots of supporters like me, who just like your work and who are most willing to support you!

This is what I think and may those ignorant people shut up next time!

Sebastian

P.S.: Hey Verne, I don't know, if you could need any help at TA. I said, you could update your site more often. Do you need a person for PR? I have some knowledge of web design, so if you want, I could help you! It's just a suggestion, but it's definately for real!!!

P.P.S.: Please keep up the good work! I am still and eagerly waiting for your announced releases!!!

FEAR. FEAR. FEAR. Please do not stop give me my free stuff. FEAR. FEAR.
And so on.
And so on.

P.P.S.: Please keep up the good work! I am still and eagerly waiting for your announced releases!!!
(Needs no translation)

ASC

If someone wants their stuff they can pay for it. The individual amount doesn't matter, divide what they desire as a yearly donation by how many downloads they make available in a given year. Everyone understands that concept, no more worrying about the I want it now for free crowd, pay or shut up. If TA wants to donate the money to their charities so they are still in essence making their individual contributions as volunteers that's up to them.

You can never please everyone no matter what you do, if you're doing this for the love of the hobby ignore the malcontents and be happy in your good work. If your doing this for universal praise from the masses you still will never please everyone.

I understand your frustration, but please open your mind to the following dissent.

TA has both a freeware department and a payware department. IMHO, you can't expect love and gratitude (from the freeware / donationware department) at the same time as lucre (from the payware department). TA has got to get off the fence and pick a side, or else stuff like this will just keep on happening.

If you choose to take time away from your family to create freeware or donationware, that's your choice and I think you are entitled to a certain amount of respect and gratitude on the part of your users.

If you choose to sell a product and advertise as part of that product free access to additional addons, the customer is king, period. While respect and gratitude from your customers is nice, you are no longer entitled to these things and should not demand them.

I think if you try to have it both ways, you have to be prepared for a situation such as this.

My intent was not to offend, only to offer my analysis of this incident as an external observer.

cheers

Offer your product, indicate the price and what you get, and that's that.

Delamaize
"Long Live High Speed Rail In The USA"

Chasis Builder, Boiler Builder, and Builder of any other parts that need to be fabricated.

Hmmmmm. Pay your money and be happy with whatever service you may or may not get, without giving us any "drama"?

I think not.

A good comparison, as someone else mentioned I think, would be TA and 3dtrains; Both do payware and freeware. (TA's, as mentioned above isn't really free...)

How many complaints do you see about 3dtrains here?

Zilch.

This is a monthly thing it seems for TA.

Perhaps TA could learn something from others in this business.

And after that apparently ego driven post, I certainly won't be jumping through any hoops to join the TA "Club".

Todd Jones

I'm not sure of the reason why you continue to refer to TA as a business. To the best of my knowledge it is not a "for profit
organization"! If you do not like the way it conducts the way it offers its projects to the public that is certainly within your right to pick and choose! There are a lot of people who are happy with TA and that is our choice. It is time for you to let go of this bone of contention. You have had your 15 minutes of flame and glory. What have you given to MSTS?

They offer access to their free downloads if you buy American Classics according to the website. However, the gentleman that started this thread obviously had some problems with this. Yes, email does get lost at times. Things get hosed up now and then. Understandable.

However, and this is the problem I have with TA, is the fact they want to run this "business" as if it were a "club". Yes, we will take your money and allow you in our forums, downloads, etc, but don't say anything bad about us. Don't complain or question us when we say something will be out and it doesn't show up for months.

Sorry, but if you are going to charge or ask people to spend money before allowing access to your products, you better be ready to field some complaints.

And, you should accept complaints and try to solve the problem in a courteous way instead of bitching about how people are a bunch of ingrates that want everything for free, how hard you work on this or that, etc.

Don't get me wrong. I appreciate what they have done for the community. I merely am pointing out some things they could do better.

I'm sure it will fall on deaf ears however.

As far as my "15 minutes of fame", I hardly consider posting here an ego boost. I come here to enjoy myself and learn things about the sim. I will post my opinion on subjects that interest me as they come along. Pro or con.

And "What have I given to MSTS?" has nothing to do with anything. If I offered a locomotive for download I would permitted to post my opinion without malice? I fail to see where that train of thought goes.

Much like someone saying a poster has no credibilty since they only have 60 odd posts.

Best,
Todd

Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

*~﨟胻*Rat~**~classic american playa~*

Pete Willard
-< The Keystone Works >-
Mechanical Engineering Dept.
http://www.trainsimstuff.com/

- bringing me in a real conflict. My question after all this is:

Am i still allowed and have the right to use that Train Artisan package that i have paid for?

Also i have to excuse my ignority not to listen to the news boy who probably have shouten about the glory history of Train artisan.

...... naaah, not really!

See, from my point of view you are a company. You sell a product which is not cheap. There are just some trains and some acts in it.

I was willing to pay that high price (higher than Cayon pass with Superchief etc.) because you offer extra material at your page.

Perhaps you start reading your own web page:
------------------------------
Train Artisan is a hobbyist group dedicated to creating high quality locomotives, rolling stock and activities for the new generation of Train Simulation software.

Our intent is to be considered one of the premiere content creators for the Train Simulation market. We will achieve this goal through our attention to detail, quality, and continuous innovation in our products.
------------------------------
The fourth button on your page links to the PRODUCT Page.
------------------------------

Raynet Business Glossary:
Product:
anything that satifies a need or a want for some form of payment (usually money)
Market:
a mean by which the exchange of goods and services takes place as a result of buyers and sellers
------------------------------
Do you see anything in the last sentences (especially the words market and product) that when you speek it loud sounds the same as you say free? Try it. Do you?

Me not!

So perhaps you want to give me back my 29 bucks and come back then to hear me say thank you or you just give what you have offered.

You offered a product (to remember - thats the thing someone pays for) together with bonus downloads.

You offered alternately a free membership to your club for people donating to one of your chosen organisation.

So what the hell i have done wrong in given you my money.

I tell you. Chosen your product to be good.

A product that offers you a bonus you do not give.

Youre lucky i am in another country because thats in fact a feast for american lawyers.

ASC

On what grounds? The money you paid to TA was for the American Classics package. Access to the club downloads is not included in the price of the AC package, it is a free gift for making the purchase.

A quote from the Club TA website

"Please note that access to this site is a privilege and not a right. We reserve the right to refuse access to anyone."

You have the AC package in your possesion, and you stated earlier that you were satisifed with it, that is all you money entitles you to.

If TA still allows you to have access to this gift they are better people than most.

JS

Yes, it is just a 'game'; that people are willing to give away their hard-earned money to make more interesting. Your customers are willing to play their lives away because a product that you sell. Normally, companies would consider it 'bad PR' to ignore customer's questions complaints; though you wrap yourselves up in enough disclaimers to make your customers believe you are not obligated in any way to help with something that they paid good money for.

However, as this is a game; I have abstained from getting anything that costs money.

No offense intended (and please, don't take it as such), this is my personal opinion.

...Runnin' on Soda...

This is getting out of hand with TrainArtisan this and TrainArtisan that. If you don't like TrainArtisan then just don't download there stuff. Stop this constant complaining on this forum. Nels, Mac, TexasWestern, and Jens are trying to make this a safe enviroment for everyone to enjoy this Simulation.

Excuse my language! If you like bitching and moaning please leave this forum! I have had enough of listening to this and I know TrainArtisan has had enough of it!

Things like this are making me change my mind on how I will release the models in which I'm going to start modeling.

TrainArtisan, I know you have to put up with a lost of BS but please don't think about quiting. There are still thousands of loyal fans out there. Thank You for the work and the long hours from your regular life and family to make us happy. Thanks

Adam
ALCO Adam's Locomotive Company

Let me put it this way. This ain't real, this is for fun, only fun, just for fun, lets not make this place into a fight club.

If one thing makes me madder than..... it is
People who decided to turn a community or club in a fight.
One last comment
The day I have to make myself log into MRS to do my work when I don't enjoy or have any fun it is when I will quit MSTS for good!

Check Out Midwest Rail Systems!
http://www.midwest-rail.com/

ta, much of what has come up lately, you have brought upon yourselves. you have a club section, but make it it a pain in the butt to get into, and there is no way to find out what all is inside, to see if it is worth paying for, unless you join. that is my only gripe, and i hope you do something in the future to make it more easy to find out what you have. if there was a way for people to see what is in the club section before they join, more people would probally join up.

i value work done by anyone that makes my msts more fun, including the SD 40 recently released as part of the 1.2 update. i enjoyed the ac pack ,and the sd 70 pack, both of which are long gone from the download section.

Untill you find a way to better get your products into the open so people know what they are paying for, there will continue to be resentment towards ta, becasue afterall, you are dealing with PAYWARE.

Not to mention you come in there and find simply nothing but a way thats a new pain in the butt.

ASC

In what way? Are you now going to offer them as Payware, or Donation-ware, or as Freeware?

I'm neutral on the matter personally, I'm quite willing to pay for the quality payware models I want and I'm very appreciative of the many talented developers who offer their quality work as freeware for the love of the hobby. I've also been donating to TA's charities since the initial release of their ESE.

The only thing I won't do is beg someone to keep them giving me free stuff. That gets old.

Hi Marc,

as i understand that you have to put your head in the line of fire because you are in the same business, your name has been mentioned and it perhaps looks not good to not react, please answer me?

Why is this thread with a mix of dissapointments and high commendation less worth and has to be closed than a thread of just high commendation.

I wanted a reaction from TA. What i get from them? Ignorance. This discussion is just a reaction pro and con of that.

You ask why i do not wrote them directly. Because the way to this has shown that that has gone to nowhere.

ASC

Also, as a new comer to this forum, it was NOT smart on your half to come in here and start something like this. I put a FULL request to the moderators of Train-Sim.com to have you banned from this forum! My 2 cents on this subject.

Adam
ALCO Adam's Locomotive Company

ASC

Adam
ALCO Adam's Locomotive Company

If TA is not a business, then they have no competitors. If they are a business than the opinions expressed do have some weight.

What makes you the judge of who is allowed to post an opinion in this forum, newcomers or not?

edit: now reading your reply to a friend's post, I think you need to GET A LIFE!!!. If you are so good, why don't you got make your own "TA." IMO, You need to LEAVE NOW. I will also Put in a request to the mods and THE ADMIN to BAN you. Don't expect nice words when you pick on the "Big Boys" of this site. We don't take "TROLLS" or "Freeloaders" nicely!!

Chris

Content Manager @ MOWShed.com / Webmaster @ Midwest-rail.com MSTS Rocks TA Please do 611 & 1218

Me, I'm off to watch a nice Jimmy Stuart classic on PBS. Best way I know of to cool off.

Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com/

Pro Series Super Packs

Adam
ALCO Adam's Locomotive Company

for the record, i have enjoyed thier work from the past, and the 1.2 sd 40 update that they did. i can get over the club thing, because simply put, untill they make it easier to view the contents of the club section, than i will not be spending money on something i know nothing about. that would be like 3dts or mlt advertising a route for 20 bucks without telling you anything about it, untill you order it and pay for it.

As someone who does not know how to re-skin, i value the contributions of others, including those that do it for free, and profit, because either way you look at it, a lot of work goes into it. i hope that ta can look at things a little differently and make some changes to thier site and the way they put thier products out.

This being my 3rd post to this topic, i'm going to leave the mud slinging to othersm becasue thier are obviously some people that will never be satisfied with what they got. i just take what i can get and move on, and like marc, i'm going to go watch a train video to help me relax, and hope this post will eventually yield way to more friendlier topics.....

good night all..

Delamaize
"Long Live High Speed Rail In The USA"

Chasis Builder, Boiler Builder, and Builder of any other parts that need to be fabricated.