Patm41

Maglev Route Designer
Casino Express
Waterfront Route

Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

"We offer this product to you free of charge, we only request that you acknowledge the time spent in development by making a $5.00 contribution (or more if your inspired) to the NewYork Central System Historical Society http://www.nycshs.org/. They helped us with research on the Empire State Express Project by providing some much needed info and photos. They are a non-profit group so any donations may be written off as a charitable donation. Groups like NYCSHS provide a valuable service by keeping, maintaining and restoring pieces of Railroad equipment as well as other objects. They insure that future generations will be able to view ,enjoy and understand Railroad history for years to come. Send your donation to..." etc. I suspect this was close to the intended, and possibly expressed, condition of release (such as it was) on the freeware ESE.

But freeware is freeware. You can "withdraw" it, I guess, by ceasing to distribute it, but it remains freeware nevertheless. Behavior you may perceive as selfish, petty and childish is one thing; "stealing" is quite another. The text of Title 17, United States Code (Copyrights), which controls this issue, is available at www4.law.cornell.edu.

In my experience, most people trying to find the Empire State Express are actually looking for the cabview, now available gratis at the TA site; or the various ese. files called for in many of the trainset repaints in the file library, and which can be scavenged from other trains. These exercises can be quite frustrating, however. Just lately I tried to apply a reskin confusingly titled "up-ese" to the TA F7. The instructions tersely specified "Work only for the first release of ESE Not work on the future F7 of Train artisan" (sic). In fact the skins were apparently meant for a different version of the F7, as they appeared on the wrong parts of the loco.

Anyhow, I appreciate TA for a lot of things they've done (and also wondered exactly why they did some other things); and I'm a proud member of their club. No one should steal from them. But while young Zach may actually be looking to score a Hudson for free, I think most people who enquire about the ESE are trying to accomplish something else.

Zach asked specifically for ESE v2.0....
IIRC, That one was never Freeware but a part of American Classics or Club TA only!

He cited a, IMPO, mythical virus which attacked the ESE 2.0 EXE file... as a reason he needed some one to replace his file...

If he had a legitimate copy of ESE v2.0 then all he had to do was contact TA for a replacement! Since he paid for it he is entitled to some sort of support, End of Story!

If, as I strongly suspect, he "scored it" then he is Stealing. Period end of story! That is what I stated....
And I personally believe to be the case from the content of his message(s) containing similar requests on this board!

And what does the EMD F7 Beta read me have to do with the ESE v2.0???? And quoting the legal definition of theft?

Are you really sure you're not Billary in Drag?(JK)LOL!

Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

You can use the cabviews from the AC CD. It installs a ese folder and the needed files.

Kevin Arceneaux
It is time for Amtrak to become a fallen flag!

Be Patient i make i reskin in UP of my Via Trainset
and i add new Obs Cars "Pocatello"

Also E9A E9B for best fit

Gaetan

I live in California and I can tell you that our illustrious Governor Grey "Low Beam" Davis dug us into the hole we're currently in. The entire state government has been run by a single political party for years, we're the most heavily taxed state in the nation and they're still telling us we're not paying enough, gotta love those donkeys.

Edited for spelling

Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

ESE v1.0 was Donation-ware

ESE v2.0 was always Donation-ware and part of the TA Club packages IIRC...
It was intended , according to published statements by various TA Members, to make the ESE and other products freeware after an unspecified period of time!
(maybe after some donation goal had been reached????)...
however the Gimme! Gimmes very quickly started in on TA about making it freeware right away and flaming them etc ad naseum...
TA basically said the heck with this noise and took their toys and went home....
(You'll note that TA Members rarely participate on the forums anymore and their products are only available through payware or Microsoft-Kuju! Club TA is still a part of the payware package IMHO since you have to buy something to get access there and access is a limited time thing based on TA's goodwill )

I also personally no longer believe, based on his participation in this thread and several others, that Zach is really an 11 year old kid!

As far as Grey Davis and California is concerned I stand with Kevarc on that one... You want socialism? You have to pay for it!

As for Dubya and Kenneth Lay... I believe its been documented that Dubya himself believes Mr. Lay is a snake oil salesmen who gulled a lot of people (him self included) and even cheated his (Dubya's) mother in law with his stock scams...
For the Record Mr. Lay prospered the most under Billary, contributed to both parties but 2 to 1 to the democrats and when things went south he called and asked for help from Billary's secty of the treasury not Dubya's...

What this tells us
Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

Or just get fed up with the socialist policies of this state and move to another, (Looks better all the time.)

I'm heartened by the notion that perhaps I can find what I need in other packages; perhaps I'll figure that out sooner or later.

'preciate it.

Kevin Arceneaux
It is time for Amtrak to become a fallen flag!

Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

TA has always been very good about including that!

Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

Oh, I tore the tag off a mattress and threw it in the trash once....

Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

( OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPS )

Stupid Malice,

I offered to send him the file over MSN ( he didnt have it anyways )

I totally forgot that just cause I got it when it was free doen not give me the right to give it away now.

Sorry Zach. I can no loger be of assistance )

PS: Yes I expect to get flamed now.....give me a couple seconds to prepare

............................................................

Okay ready !!

Tim Kent
Winnipeg Canada
" Power for You "

Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

The argument has long history.

And for a normal downloader, some meaning is you need read license carefully. If you cannot ensure it will always available. And you like others. Download it as quickly as possible. You don't know what time they will change the idea. It's not a joke.

-->Kyle Penn<--

"There is more to Heaven and Earth than your Philosophy can realize."

Bob Artim
http://www.vnerr.com/

Where we help people regardless of age, nationality or creed, no belittle them into non existence.

Zach, future Trinity Railway engineer(I'm only eleven)

I love T&P!

Umm...

Well...

Move it.

-Jeff

No it wasn't. The ESE v2.0 was available to those who donated, which you obviously didn't do. You seem to interpet this as freeware, it's not.

JS

Well Joe.................unless I renamed the exe. file when I downloaded it and the 3 MB Patch it is sitting on my second hard drive as ESE 2.0 exe

AND I GUARANTEE I DID NOT PURCHASE ANY TA STUFF !!

Tim Kent
Winnipeg Canada
" Power for You "

The people who downloaded these with out making the required donation obviously are deficient in the honor department IMHO!

Timothy you and I need to have words about this....

Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm,

I don't have it installed right now,

I am going to run it and see what's up with the agreement, cause I guarantee if I had to donate

I wouldn't have......................

NOT because I don't agree with the cause,

BUT

I donated to every possible 9/11 charity up here

BRB gonna run the exe and see what version it is !!!!!

Tim Kent
Winnipeg Canada
" Power for You "

Wholly crap am I going to hell or what ?? My apologies go out to Train Artisan and to all of you for being an idiot !!

PS: I am not going to plead ignorance here cause thats not an excuse, BUT I can guarantee you it hasn't been installed on my system for a LONG time.............consider it deleted

Later

Tim Kent
Winnipeg Canada
" Power for You "

Thank you Timothy! You may now leave the corner!

What this means to the rest of us is;
If you didn't donate you didn't follow their wishes!!!!
Ergo, Its not a legal Copy!
Ergo, Its stolen!
Ergo, you are a thief!

And Please no parsing of weasel words from the rest of you about how T/A forgot to require "Mother May I" or write the disclaimers in "Ancient Sumeric Cryptograms" or the obscure legal phrase of your choice, so the restriction is invalid and you were too stupid to understand it anyway! Save that stuff for conversations with and about Billary concerning illict acts with Interns! The fact is if you didn't donate then you don't have a license!

Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

I've seen more ill feelings between forum members get generated because some kid who should and sometimes does know better than to post thier nonsence be it in wrong forums or off forum topic, see how some kids tell veteran forum members to shove it or shut it and whatever.
So if kids want to get on here and cant act accordingly, put em in the playpen till they can understand whats required of them here.

Just my dollars worth, and if anyone wants to flame on my point of view go right ahead and remain to put up with the all the childish nonsence.

John

-->Kyle Penn<--

No problem, knew what you meant. As to further my comment to restricted access for the forums, I've no problem with kids in the forums as long as they know when to hold thier tongues, know how to post appropriate subjects in the correct forums, and act accordingly.

I find No justification for the way some kids act here, I've a great nephew only 12 years old who is a member of the forums here but you would never know it by his posts, and he further knows if he tried to get away with what other kids do here his little fanny would be out back of the woodshed in quick order and loose his computer privilages to boot. Responceability and arrogance begin at home.

John

I agree whole heartedly , with one exception, all the rules you propose shouldn't be for "kids" only. I know some "adults" (Stumbl comes to mind , along with Malice , who is worse )
>
>

-->Kyle Penn<--

Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

Chuck Schneider
Apprentice Curmudgeon
I'm only 57 5/6

(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

I reckon I must have been stepping on TA's toes,or those of other "respected" forum members,by my suggestion of dumping the "donationware" hybrid,regarding their products,and calling for it to be redefined,for what it is in actuality,payware.

Well you can carry on with your sterile argument gents,aqnd the hounding of an eleven year old,but remember that a donation is a voluntary act.
To demand a donation is bordering on extortion,something your mafia exells at.But then,not being au fait with American customs I cannot comment further.

TA wanted to do something to help out a charity.
The 9/11 fund and other charities....
They had 3 choices about how to do it...

Choice 1... Charge for the project and then send the money to the charity... Possibly get involved with Distribution and sales tax and business license... Lots of Bookwork, Big Pain in the A$$!

Choice 2... Same as Choice 1, However have a recognized software publisher do all the grunt work for you eliminating most of the pain in the A$$... Have said publisher take a huge chunk of the profits for administrative costs and their profits...

Choice 3... Have your customers send the money directly to the Charity or charities and then download or get the product from you.... Straight forward and not much bookkeeping on their part....

Your Choice 4 Larkie of letting the charity do it was a non-starter for the Fireman's Fund as they did not want to take on the administration either!

Which Choice do you think they made?

Too bad the huge number of thieves who downloaded the product (ESE) and then never donated ruined Choice 3 for every one....

In other words they assumed that people are basically honest!
Too bad a whole bunch of them are not and ruined it for the rest of us!

Larkie, Why do they have to do what you want to call their products and maybe fit into your preconceived notions...

Under the US system and maybe also under the UK system TA could call their products Mabel if they wanted to and require you to stand on your head wearing a pink chiffon evening gown while wanking in order to use them if they so desired! Your choice would only be whether or not you wanted to comply.. If you didn't then you couldn't use their products legally!

What part of that concept do you not understand?
Am I going too fast for ya?

>>"To demand a donation is bordering on extortion,something your mafia exells at"<<<

Gratuitous Ad Homonym Arguments again! You must feel you are losing badly to inject those Larkie????
I guess you don't have organized crime in the UK, Eh?

FWIW the Mafia is a mere shadow of what it once was, overshadowed by the Wealth, cruelty and ruthlessness of the various mostly South American and Caribbean drug organizations with a little help from their far eastern friends! I guess these bad boys don't operate in the UK either? Bull $hit! They are true multinationals!

Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

2. Why not show ESE2 license? It smmes they use a wrong license, a regular freeware license, and block it cause very bad result! But all of your folks only blame other people. Some additional things I need say is there are no conflict to sell a freeware (by author). Sell it mean nothing released freeeware automatically change to payware. The problem is begin when you block it not sell it.

If you always want to talking about Copyright, don't only look at other people.

3. Just as I said, TA's donation-first-ware is actually Commercial software. So don't treat your customer as freeware downloader. And for those author, don't pretend you are a freeware maker. You are not donate to your club member. May be you think you donate to both. But I guess many people will not agree, since you force them. You want what? They kiss your shoe and say you are so great?

4. It seems TA team is not know much as you on copyright problem. I wish they don't make mistake again, don't release "freeware" again, but I am not sure. They recently block the last webpage contain ESE 1.0, which is released before 9/11 and nothing about donation. And they also delete a topic here about they "freeware", and that topic was stoped long before. Does doing such things let them feel like God? They still need learn many things.

I began to think the same thing as I read Tim's message. If you look down at the buttons below it though, you will see a "Back", a "Yes" and a "No" button. I assume if you press yes the installation continues, however if it ends (Which I suspect it will) if you answer "No" then by inference, that makes it not a question, but a condition of installation. Thereby if you do not donate, you are violating the spirit of the agreement, and in fact, as Chuck put it "Stealing" the product. I give this round to Chuck!

Since they folks don't want to show the license. I had to found it. I remmember some people have paste it a long long time ago. But search result is almost all topic contain word "ESE" or "Empire State Express" in year 2002 had been deleted! What a good job! It seems no one talk about Empire State Express year 2002, does that true?!

I remmember there are such sentences like this in ESE2 license:

"You may freely distribute this software in its full
unaltered archived format provided that you do not
receive any financial gain from said distribution or
use. If distribution is part of a larger commercial
effort, written permission must be provided by
Cyrus Lum (acylum@trainartisan.com) before distribution
can take place."

That the why so many argument on ESE 2 here!
If I am wrong, I beg any of your folks correct me, and post the entire license.

But there are many have been deleted, not only the one I mentioned before!

The search result sequence of archived messages is wrong and let me feel they been deleted! I am sorry! This forum only allow edit posted message within 60 minutes so I had to make a new post.

And the search result confirm what I said before about the license content. It's a very regular freeware license.

Actually I'm a Software Engineer by trait. I do know the difference between an acknowledgement dialog box vs a conditional dialog box. If this was just an acknowledgement you would have a button like "Ok", "Continue", "Acknowlege" or even just a "Yes" button. Having both a Yes and No button though in this context, does indicates a question of a condition. I do admit the wording of the text could have been a little more clear on the subject. I do remember statements like the one you post for ESE version 1.0. I haven't downloaded V 2.0 so I'll let someone else answer that one.

One other thing. I just looked at Tim's screenshot again. It is a scrollable dialog. The wording that your looking for may be below whats visable in the screenshot. Tim, does it?

Well I only have 17 years experience as a programmer, programming ln languages like Assembler, COBOL, LISP, C, C++.... Before that I had 7 years in Computer Operations and System Administration. My current title is "Senior Systems Analyst" for a Fortune 10 company, but enough about me.

You lost! Admit it!

You are assuming that the agreement is on another page with out having the document in front of you! Wrong! You can't do that!

You can't assume anything where legalities are concerned.
You have to read it...
Remember Assume makes an Ass out of U and Me!

Legally Doesn't matter if you are too stupid to read the entire document before you push the button!

Your arguments would hold no water in a US court and since TA is physically located in the US that is where the applicable body of law is!

Bottom line is if you downloaded version 2 and pushed the Yes button and then failed to make a contribution like 95% of those who downloaded it did, Then you are a Thief! End of Story!

FWIW, I am a retired Principle Systems Software Engineer with over 35 years experience now a consultant and I never heard arguments like yours except from a sub-contractor who screwed up and didn't want to Admit it!

Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

>>>>Under the US system and maybe also under the UK system TA could call their products Mabel if they wanted to and require you to stand on your head wearing a pink chiffon evening gown while wanking in order to use them if they so desired! Your choice would only be whether or not you wanted to comply.. If you didn't then you couldn't use their products legally!

What a poor man! You don't even directly answer one of my question. And what you know? You only know how to spell these nasty sentences! If you think your court will support you write these sentences in your license agreement or you can write something like "By use my loco, you are agree not say my loco has incredible mistake, if not, you are illegal!". You are totally wrong! You know nothing about the law!

What is Copyright? Copyright is just the copy right. And copyright protect what? Copyright only protect one thing. That is: money! money! money! If you want other things, that's not the copyright duty. Copyright only protect your money by restrict other people use your software, your current money and your future money. And there are 3 aspect: use it, distribute it, modify it. Copyright don't give you right command user do other things except give your money. The spirit of law is common and all over the world. If ther are exception, that only mean you intend abuse of the law!

Then come back to first question. If TA want to say the first page is the part of license agreement. It must have the word like "license" or any words mentioned in license page. If they want to mean donation is forced, it must have some word like "must", "agree" not "please"! So in law, these users have no problem.

On other side. I agree first "yes" button can explain as "Yes, I agree" or "Yes, I see". But all of your folks ignore one thing. These people download these software because they hear it's a freeware. And they really see word "freeware" on license page. What's the freeware mean? The freeware definition is never clear and always argument on that. There are a widely range different software being called "freeware", from your kind to GPL. But there are at least one thing: freeware mean user don't need pay money! (If you don't agree, just speak loudly!). So if first page mean must, there are conflict between two pages. And most people will think that button only mean acknowledgement. If TA really want mean "must" that time. That's the mistake he made! You have pay money, you don't like them. That's your business! Don't call them "thief"! You are doing libel!

The argument on TA ESE 2.0 and Club has long history before I coming and no doubt will continue. What's the essential of these argument. I don't think the essential is the license, the essential is the absolutely right! TA and they folks think they have absolutely right to the software they made, like re-explain the license after release, change it at any time, and may be anything they desired, since they are author! But they are wrong! Law protect anyone compliant it. Not only the author! There are no such things like absolutely right exist! The license agreement is the agreement between two side, and two side are egality. (You don't understand?) You cannot rescind it solely. On other hand, change it need you inform anyone have relation with it (that mean they will not do something illegally before prior know). And basically being freeware mean author must abnegate some rights, like you can not speak to user "you need pay money". If you want to retains all the rights, don't release it(sale commerical software also mean abnegate some rights), don't call it freeware!

I need give you some advice. I know pretend as a freeware maker must be a painful experience to you. But don't patrol here like a Gestapo and suspect to everyone. That's helpless! That can not reduce your pain. You can stop the pain, easily. Don't release it, remove these files from the file library. I will say nothing. Why not do that? Your license is already prepared. And you will never worry your "freeware" being pirated. And also you may sell it. Who say you can not sell a freeware? I say you can! That's no problem on law! What's the right you fighting for? What's you want to guard? We know that clearly.

May be you are still afraid of pirate. I need say, don't worry. MSTS world is the least pirate place I ever see. By take many times searching ESE 2 (More than it's value), I found no webpage contain it (May be a pirate don't like host it because it's freeware:9). If you still afraid that, you can do nothing.

Oh, I may be messed up. You don't want money? You want some other things? I forgot. Sorry, copyright can not protect that. Perhaps you can add somethings like "everyone use this loco must say chucksc is so great every time you use it" to your license. And test the result.

I need say somethings. I have no question on business. I have no comment on commercial. But I hate these pretender in freeware maker! You and TA are the spot on freeware world. Are the wolf with sheep skin. Are the disease. I want to clean it, and kick you out of freeware world!

However I think you said,

" need say somethings. I have no question on business. I have no comment on commercial. But I hate these pretender in freeware maker! You and TA are the spot on freeware world. Are the wolf with sheep skin. Are the disease. I want to clean it, and kick you out of freeware world!"

You want to kick Train Artisan and me out of the freeware world?
ROFLMAO.....

Who the hell do you think you are?
Bring it on Loser.....
If you really want to do it then beat us in the market place with better products....
Payware to compete with them (TA) and Freeware to compete with us (NALW)...

Then, of course, I will copy your products, put my name on them and release them as my own creations.... And sell them! Since you apparently feel copyright law does not apply to you...
How would you like that?

With your attitude as to My Intellectual Property You must be from one of those places that have 1 licensed copy for every 300 million users... After all its only a Western capitalist thing this idea of Copyright and intellectual property...
and we all know those rules don't apply to the Middle Kingdom!
If the secret police don't kick the door down and shoot and cook your dog when you STEAL, then you think you got away with something>......

If you violate the Freeware Agreement between you and the Original author that you agree to when you download and install the product then you are a THIEF....

No grey area here....

Have a nice life TROLL
Don't come in here making threats like that unless you want to be booted out.

Sheesh...
He's gonna run us out of our Hobby?????

Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

2. I have no interresting to compete with you and TA. Even I made a better software. There are nothing changes to license problem. And if I made one, it will be GPL, and you dare have a try!

Each and every one of you has done something not so legal in your lives, yet you want do not hesitate to point your fingers at someone else, who may or may not be making a mistake. If the program is Donationware, then distributing it is broadening the audience for potential donations. You do not see this product available on any pirate or commercial sharing systems, so BACK OFF the flame throwers and continue your lives. You aren't going to lose the house because an 11 year old gets a file he wants.

Nuff said...

Oh yeah, you can send the cops to my house. La Serena, Chile....

Bill

In my opinion this thread should have been locked ages ago. It has turned inot nothing more than a slanging match and all basically directed at an 11 year old.

Shame on you all.

Bill

Since you don't have the package How do you "Know" this????

Possibly a little Bird told You?

Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

And the same question, you have said you have already deleted ESE 2.0, and it's seems you memory is not reliable. How can you say there are no word "freeware"?

ESE V2.0 did raise almost $20,000 for the Firefighters fund which we felt was pretty cool. That was with only about 5% of those who downloaded making the requested donation. Imagine if it had been 95% donating....
Anyone who thought ESE 2.0 was Freeware either never bothered to read the EULA (Et Tu Mr. Kent!) or lives in an alternate reality.
BTW Zach, Why can't you copy the folders from your old trainset to your new trainset???? Your 11 and should be completely computer literate, It's old farts like Chuck and I that should be confused

Ummmmmmmm Rob,

Is there some sort of fetish that you have that you would like to talk about ??

E-mail me @ home I have some guitar / amp problem questions for ya

Thanks

ctober@shaw.ca

Tim Kent
Winnipeg Canada
" Power for You "

Bud and anyone else with Version 1 you have my abject apologies!

However, not to dissemble, but I believe young Master Zach's questions concerned Version 2... Which was donationware....

I have the American Classics Set from the Beginning (I think or very close to it) and deleted version 2 when I got that as I deleted version 1 when I made my contribution to the Firefighter's fund and got version 2.....
So as I have stated more than once I was going on memory which is what IIRC (If I Recall Correctly) means... It appears my memory was flawed and version 1 and 2 blurred in my feeble mind!

95% Chose to download and not contribute! Sheesh!
What a bunch of losers!

Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

Patm41

Maglev Route Designer
Casino Express
Waterfront Route

Now that's low!! If you read this thread you would see you were to send the money directly to the Uniformed Firefighters Association (UFA) not to Train Artisan. The UFA is a legitimate charity in the wake of 9/11

For anyone who seriously read Patm's post about looking at TA's tax forms there are none! TA went the donationware route direct to the charity so they would not have to deal with the whole Tax issue...

Pat what part of donate direct to the charity don't you understand?

Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

And why do you shower criticism on the "Three Musketeers" of which you happen to be one of?

From Texas eh?

I wonder if he's an aggie?

Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

Now if Garber comes back we'll have to come up with a new tag!

Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

TA is legit.

$29.95 for that maglev route, now that's a scam.

JS

Oh oh

COVER .............. Incoming !!

Tim Kent
Winnipeg Canada
" Power for You "

Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

Bill